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USA v. Peterson, et al. - Transcripts of Tapes of Therapy Sessions


Tape #79, Side A - Date: 6/17/1992

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

JP: Judith Peterson, Ph.D.

BW: Barbara White

UI: Unintelligible


    (Beginning of Side A of tape)
1   (Unintelligible background noise)
2 JP: ...(UI)
3 BW: I, I, I'm, wondering you know, what I can and can't
4   do, um, as far as what would be triggering to him or if
5   he's past that or, uhm...
6 JP: Uh-huh.
7 BW: I mean, can I talk pretty freely or do I have to be
8   real guarded.. and, I...can I touch him? Will I be
9   able to uhm you know, all those kinds of things...
10 JP: Uh-huh.
11 BW: I don't want to do anything that's gonna, ah...you
12   know, back track us in any way.
13 JP: Uh-huh... uh-huh... when I talked to Bobbi last
14   night she, uhm...one of the things she forgot to ask
15   about in the session that they had yesterday was about
16   touch and so when he comes into town that's one of the
17   things I'll address with him. When I see him before he
18   sees you.
19 BW: Uh-huh.
     
    1
     
1 JP: So, that I'll have an understanding of what he feels
2   comfortable about. So, I don't know the answer to that
3   part. What I do know...
4   (Brief pause in tape)
5   (Background noise - mumbling)
6   Uhm, when... what I do know is that, uhm... I think
7   that Bobbi senses that he is still programmed enough
8   that she and that your are... and I agree that... that
9   she doesn't want you to have any time when youĂ­re not
10   with someone that's a therapist. But, that's real
11   important.
12 BW: Can we do anything....
13 JP: What's going on?
14 BW: What? Uhm... I, I, I'm just like rubbing my hand...
15   it's cream in. I just put some hand...
16 JP: When I said that it looked like somebody got angry.
17 BW: I... it is a disappointment to, uhm... not be able to
18   be with your husband, you know, to be with Dick,
19   freely... uhm... it is a disappointment to me. Uhm, I
20   understand why, but that doesn't mean that I don't have
21   feelings about it.
22 JP: But, what I sense is a lot feelings, a lot of different
23   feelings, one is disappointment but I... my other sense
24   is one of that somebody is mad.
     
    2
     
1 BW: Well I... I'm angry not at you, but at the whole
2   situation. The cult for making... making it that...
3   that... you know, two people, well ah... I love Dick
4   very much and not to be able to... I mean, not that I'm
5   gonna, you know, say anything that a therapist, you or,
6   Sylvia or Trish or Dr. Seward, uhm, doesn't already
7   know. It's just the idea of... feels like, uhm... I'm
8   almost a prisoner.
9 JP: How is that?
10 BW: Well, you know, if you're a prisoner, you can't talk to
11   your husband without, or you can't talk to your spouse
12   without a guard, and it makes me feel, uhm... trapped
13   again... well, you know, and it's not, it has nothing
14   to do with me right now it has to do more with the
15   feelings of the past.
16 JP: Sure... and I'm sure that Dick has a lot of anger about
17   it, but that's, in talking with Bobbi and processing it
18   in therapy that, that's what he came up with... That,
19   that doesn't feel fair to him either and that he would
20   like to be able to visit his wife and have that be like
21   anybody else visiting their wife, and it's not, and the
22   reality of that for him in deciding with his therapist
23   what he needs to do to be safe, I'm sure he had a lot
     
    3
     
1   of feeling with that. He has a lot of mixed feelings
2   about it.
3 BW: But, you know, this is a big step and uhm... and I...
4   I'm just glad I can see him.
5 JP: Uh-huh.
6 BW: I'm glad that we're this far along that~uhm... you
7   know, we'll be able to... I'll be able to see him and
8   talk to him and, you know, ask about George and see how
9   he's doing and really, really get a sense of where we
10   are. One of the things that I wanted to ask and, and I
11   know Dr. Stewart... Seward and I talked about it
12   yesterday, uhm... that's, and I don't mean immediately,
13   but in... how is it gonna be that when I... when we get
14   to the point of, uhm starting family sessions and
15   putting the family back together... am I gonna... and
16   then, am I gonna go back up to Chicago and then... I
17   can't... I can't see going home directly from this
18   hospital to home without an interim period in there
19   where, uhm, you know, George and I get used to each other
20   again and Dick and I get used to each other again, cause
21   so much has... you know, I don't know how Dick feels
22   about me... I mean he doesn't feel the same about me
23   that he did a year ago. He has so much more
     
    4
     
1   information, and I don't know for sure how he is going
2   to respond.
3 JP: I think the thing, you know I asked Bobbi about that
4   because Dr. Seward, uhm... mentioned that to me, uhm...
5   that that had come up about being up there and I talked
6   to Bobbi about it because I get an understanding on
7   what was going on and her... her concern now is that
8   George's feelings are so strong that if you were probably
9   in the same state, let alone the same hospital, that
10   all he would do would be continually to try to kill
11   himself. That he is that terrified. Until that's any
12   different, that needs to be really honored. Because he
13   can't be worked with on anything except the acute
14   suicidality when he's like that. And he feels that
15   unsafe.
16 BW: Do you think there'll ever be a time where George and I
17   will be...(UI)...
18 JP: No. But, right now whenever it comes up his feelings
19   are extremely intense.
20 BW: (sniffles)
21 JP: And that's one of the reasons why Bobbie doesn't
22   recommend that you go back to Rush to do your work
23   because what that means is that he's really in touch
24   with what's happened to him or else he wouldn't feel
     
    5
     
1   that way. He wouldn't be working at a deep level, he
2   wouldn't have the deep feelings. He wouldn't feel so
3   desperate at the thought of being around you if he
4   weren't in touch with what's happened. It means he's
5   also doing some really important work in therapy.
6 BW: Yeah. I want him... I want him to be able to heal and I
7   know... know he has to go through the stage, but it
8   hurts so much to think that he, ah... and I don't...
9   he... he has such strong feelings of hatred towards me
10   cause I certainly don't feel that way about him.
11 JP: I didn't say hatred. I said he is terrified and that
  he is so terrified that he would kill hirnself. I didn't
13   say hatred at all, Barbara. I said terror. there is a big
14   difference, a big difference... people don't feel
15   suicidal just because they hate somebody. He is in
16   fear of his life. And right now, my sense is he would
17   rather die by his own hand than die of the cult's hand.
18   That's not hatred.
19 BW: (takes a deep breath)
20 JP: That's... that's fear of the cult. I think the cult
21   inside you would like to turn it around so, oh well,
22   it's just because he hates me. That's not his role.
23   It's because of what the cult parts have done and his
     
    6
     
1   terror of the cult... and he feels that you need the
2   protection from the cult.
3 BW: (sniffles) I say having to have... have to live like
4   that... it's awful.
5 JP: To have to live in what way?
6 BW: In... in terror of having to be afraid to go outside...
7   and off the grounds, it's not any way for an 11-year
8   old to be living.
9 JP: No, it's not.
10 BW: Makes me so angry.
11 JP: You have anger?
12 BW: A lot. Like... I feel like I have to contain it.
13 JP: Why?
14 BW: Because... because that we have a lot to do and it's
15   not, it's not appropriate...
16 JP: It's not appropriate, why?
17 BW: (blows nose) Um. Maybe I could have a, uhm... anger
18   session. Where I can get some of the anger out.
19   Today...
20 JP: Uh-huh...
21 BW: It's ah...
22 JP: Can you get some of it out now?
23 BW: ...(Sobs)... Well it's not.... (blows nose)
24   (Background noise - bumping/tapping noise)
     
    7
     
1   I hate... I hate... I hate this cult, I hate how they
2   made us... with me... (UI)...
3   (Background noise - loud bumping/tapping noise)
4   ...(UI)... I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it,
5   I hate it...
6   (Background noise - loud bumping/tapping noise)
7   God damn it.. It's not fair... It's isn't fair that any
8   of us have to live this way. It's not fair to... to...
9   we had to experience it in the first place... and it's
10   not fair that George has to go through it twice to
11   show... I hate... I hate you... I hate the cult, I hate
12   my mother...
13   (Background noise - loud bumping/thumping noise)
14   I'm not gonna let you ruin... God damn bastards.
15 JP: Who has the claws? Who has the claws?
16 BW: It's for all the times...
17 JP: Who has the claws? ...those parts come up.
18 BW: ...(UI)... do. It's for all the times they made scratch
19   out the eyes.
20 JP: Uh-huh. Where are those parts? Where are the parts
21   that you know George (Ul)?
22 BW: (blowing her noise) this is... It's the, ah... the same
23   part that... that... experienced the electro shock and
     
    8
     
1   the drugs and the torture that, that George did and
2   watched.
3 JP: Where are the parts that are angry because they can't
4   get to George? And that can't get to Dick?
5 BW: I don't think there are... I honestly don't think there
6   are any parts left that I .(UI)... and I think my
7   system... the whole system is completely ready to
8   work... I don't think there are any parts that don't
9   want recovery.
10 JP: Where are any of those parts that feel like they're not
11   doing their job? That are hearing me but, they're not
12   gonna be able to do their job?
13 BW: But we know....
14 JP: Where are those parts?
15 BW: We know that we don't have to do that anymore. We
16   don't have to hurt, we... we can tell, uh.... and it
17   could be different. There aren't any parts that want
18   to hurt Dick and George. It's just everybody is hurt too
19   much, and we can be different now... it can be
20   different.
21 JP: ... (UI) my hands.
22 BW: It's the parts that...
23 JP: Uh-huh.
24 BW: ...want...
     
    9
     
1 JP: The parts that learned to claw.
2 BW: That want to claw but not claw Dick or George.
3 JP: That learned that that was their their job. Uh-huh...
4 BW: I...
5 JP: Can you come all the way out?
6 BW: ...(UI)... they wanna... they wanna rip apart things...
7 JP: Uh-huh.
8 BW: Without the... I feel their anger...
9 JP: Uh-huh.
10 BW: Around the cult.
11 JP: Uh-huh.
Y BW: And that's how they know how to do it... some people
13   learn to hit, some people...
14 JP: I'm not asking for explanations, I'm asking for those
15   parts... I know about that. But, I think you know that
16   I know.
17 BW: They're here. Those parts are here.
18 JP: ...(UI) all the way out. All the way out.
19 BW: ...(UI)...
20 JP: Can you let out their feelings? Let out their feelings.
21   (Background noise - bumping/thumping/screaming)
22 BW: I... hate you... I hate you...
     
    10
     
1 JP: Can those parts come all the way out? That thought
2   they had to be animals? (Background noise - screaming)
3   All the way out. All the way out.
4 BW: ...I...
5 JP: Can those parts come all the way out?
6 BW: I'm afraid to let them all the way out.
7 JP: Why?
8 BW: Because, I just...
9 JP: Where do you need to be in here? Where do you need to
10   be?
11 BW: Well, I need to be here. I need to be somewhere in
12   the... like in the quiet room or the abreaction room so
13   that I can...
14 JP: What do you wanna do?
15 BW: I want to... I want to tear things up. I want to
16   tear... tear and I want to scream real loud...
17 JP: You wanna go in the quiet room?
18 BW: Can we go in the abreaction room?
19 JP: Uh-huh...okay, use this.
20   (Background noise - bumping/thumping noise)
21 BW: This is for... this is for every God damn time you
22   electro shocked George ... and you... made me drug Dick so
23   he wouldn't know so he couldn't help. I hate you, I
24   hate you...
     
    11
     
1   (Background noise - bumping/thumping/crying)
2   ...I hate...I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
3   you, I hate you cult... never again are you going to
4   hurt my family. You are never going to hurt my family
5   again, you are never... god... never gonna let you...
6   we're gonna work, I'm gonna work until...until I'm safe
7   from you. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.
8   (Background noise - loud screaming)
9 BW: Okay... oh, god.
10 JP: What's happening?
11   (Background noise - bumping/thumping/screaming)
12   What's happening? What's happening? You let out the
13   rage?
14 BW: Yeah. There are parts that are... that are very angry.
15   The anger is frightening.
16 JP: What's frightening?
17 BW: ...(UI)... to me.
18 JP: Uh-huh. Can you let those parts out?
19   (Background noise - bumping/thumping/screaming)
20 BW: I hate you, I hate you... why did you... (UI)... I will
21   get free.
22   (Background noise - bumping/thumping/screaming)
     
    12
     
1   I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
2   you... I will get... I will get free. (screaming) I hate
3   you, I hate you, I hate you. I hate you, I hate you.
4 JP: Are there parts being here that are ... (UI).
5 BW: What?
6 JP: Those parts...(UI)...
7   (Background noise - loud screaming)
8 BW: (Screaming)...(UI)...
9 JP: Unlock your hands.
10 BW: For all the time that I couldn't get to George and you
11   were hurting him I would, if I could have gotten...
12 JP: Who's trying to get to him? Who's trying to get to
13   him?
14 BW: People in the cult that hurt George... and then they
15   held, and held... they did terrible things to him and
16   now he's still...(UI) drug (UI)... this is...It's
17   smashing inside that little boy...
18   (Background noise - bumping/thumping)
19 JP: Inside that little boy.
20 BW: ...(UI)... they hurt the children...(UI) couldn't yell
21   at them...
22 JP: Uh-huh.
23 BW: If I could... or I can...
24 JP: Can what?
     
    13
     
1 BW: If I could only could handle...
2 JP: Uh-huh...
3 BW: This... I can't handle it... No, stop it. No, I said
4   stop it... (UI)... If there was a way I could stop it, I
5   would have stopped it. And I'm going to stop it now.
6   No one is gonna hurt my family again. No one is going
7   to hurt me again. Never, never, ever...
8   (Background noise - bumping/thumping)
9 JP: I'm wondering if everyone needs to be (UI) rage come
10   on.
11 BW: It's like it will never go away.
12 JP: Rage? Might not want it to. That rage will not belong
13   to you and that rage will protect you and that's a real
14   consideration (UI). There are some things in life you
15   hear about, what's happened to you or and what happened
16   to the human race... (UI) outrageous... Why don't the
17   rage of it go away.
18 BW: It...
19 JP: Controlling it is important so that it doesn't destroy
20   you... (UI) that's real.. I'm wondering some parts
21   inside that need a little time today, a little time to
22   express ...(UI)... to be (UI).
23 BW: Yes.
     
    14
     
1 JP: ...(UI)...and the rage can be, when it's expressed (UI)
2   today as opposed to on yourself.
3 BW: I made a promise to myself that, uhm I won't hurt
4   myself because if I hurt myself it's only doing what
5   they want me to do.
6 JP: I wanna ask ...(UI)... the fingers and check with the
7   fingers and see if there are any parts (UI) parts that
8   what we managed today and handled today and might want
9   to hurt the body. (UI) those parts can (UI) safe (UI)
10   fingers and the hands can (UI). Maybe that you need to
11   hold something (UI) like a pillow or something. Would
12   that help?
13 BW: Yes.
14 JP: Okay...that's the sense I have (UI)... and so would you
15   make that your responsibility to do that today?
16 BW: Yeah. Do you think I'm ready to see Dick?
17   (End of Side A of tape)
     
    15
     

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